I won't ever buy anything from Freedom Scientific if this is the way they do business. Shameful!

This is truely insane; has Freedom lost their mind? Well I have not used any Freedom products for a while now and now in light of this I definitely do not plan to. I think I can say this on behalf of most of the customers of GW Micro that if there is anything we can do to help or support you in this situation either finantially, morally etc. we will be willing of course resources permitting. I really hope this gets resolved soon.
-Cory

& we wonder why screenreaders cost so bleapin much! & why couldn't (or wouldn't) any of the screenreaders incorporate the captia solving capabilities of WebVisum, which is developed by a couple guys who knew zip about screenreading technology before they did this. To me it just highlights the greed of all of the big A.T. players.

they should be worried. We don't sell more window-eyes, partly because of the way the funding system works here, and partly because it costs too much for small businesses to set up as direct dealers. Even so I've killed 3 coppies in the last two months and another one is hopefully on it's way ut the door. I've also got a braille sense client, and we'd be setting her up with even more gw kit if there were coverage. We might even at that but it will take a lot longer. I've used jaws, window bridge and window-eyes extensively and I train on jaws and window-eyes as well as NVDA. I'm herding clients over to window-eyes as fast as I possibly can. Jaws is not a good 5-year investment any more, and I don't like dealing with the company when I go out on site. With gw, it usually doesn't even come to that, so there you go. Please make a fight of it and you can always count on your customer base to keep supporting you.

Freedom will have their day. Sounds like the VC money mongers are displeased with the results of the SMA business and Freedom doesn't know how to go after the low vision space. All in the name of protecting what they've built they say...sounds like a last ditch effort to squeeze the competition unfairly (predatory pricing with the braille displays...countersuit?). My prediction is it will backfire on them. Virtualization will eliminate the dependency on client applications and only the 50,000 power users will exist from whom they can try to charge $200 a year to stay current. Not scalable.

I used to be a JAWS beta tester, but was fired at the beginning of the 9.0 cycle, just after the FS/Serotek deal. Now I'm very glad I didn't protest! This is a shameful act which clearly seaks to destroy healthy competition and to ensure that their JAWS screen reader remains the only viable option. Unfortunately for them, many people now have more sense than to purchase an overpriced screen reader from an immoral company. Doug, Dan, Aaron and the team, I wish you the very best of luck in this case and sincerely hope that Freedom Scientific's case fails. Perhaps, when you emerge victorious, you can sue Freedom Scientific three times as much for the inconvenience and the loss of development time?

As I've said numerous times, FS needs to quit this immoral behavior and just deal with the compitition!
If I had the money jaws would be leaving my system faster then you could say computer, energize. smile.

So, if you can't beat them in the market place, sue them? This is so disgustingly typical. It's sad that this industry has turned into a filthy shadow of what it once was when I first got into it in 1994. The lawsuit against Serotek was a joke as it was and a clear example of how ridiculously petty Freedom Scientific has become. This merely demonstrates a new low in their inability to compete. An idea for you, FS Why not try making products that stand on their own merits, instead of resorting to this kind of disgraceful, unproductive behavior that only hurts the blind overall?

I heard about the "FS VS. Serotek" lawsute, and I thought that was just ridiculous, but that was nothing compared to this. FS, grow up, get a grip and get a life. Either that or get lost.

Please visit http://blog.blindaccessjournal.com/2008/07/freedom-scientific-files-patent.html for an article on Blind Access Journal regarding this situation, including an accessible copy of the complaint. What shall we do my friends?

Freedom is back at their B.S game. What a way to spend that hard-earned money they get from their inferior products. Instead of taking a cheep-shot at competitors. use it to improve your software ... or better yet, hire lawyers that aren't so sue-happy.

What a waste of time for everyone involved. (sigh)

Wow, why doesn't FS take the money they're spending on a frivalous lawsuit, and invest it on product development and enhancement instead? I don't pay for SMA's from them, for them to use it in part to bring lawsuits against the competition. I own licenses for both, thank goodness, so I have access to the best of both Window-Eyes and Jaws. FS needs to step up to the plate and innovate, instead of lashing out in a way that alienates their customer base.

Is Freedom Scientific being run by first graders these days? Their sheer arrogance and bullying tactics indicate that such is the case. Since Dolphin is working on a place marking script for their products, does this mean they're next?

The blind community is small and has very finite resources available. GW Micro should not be using what it has to defend itself against a frivolous law suit, and FS should be shamed of itself for wasting yet more time and money on this. How many features did Window-Eyes innovate only to be poorly copied by JFW? Did GW sue? No; they accepted the reality of competition and moved on. Instead of improving Jaws, Freedom is throwing a tantrum because their market share is about to slip away-- not because of any patent issue, but because GW Micro has really come up with a great update for Window-Eyes 7.

I would think the CEO at Freedom Scientific would know better than to squander the company's assets like this. Clearly not.

Steve

It's pathetic that FS would stoop to such a thing. Those kind of frivilus misuses of the court system raise prices on everyday products. For FS to do it means they have no respect for their end users as well as GW's end users. Although GW is the victim of the attack, really the end users of both screen readers will have to pay. After all, the money for legal expenses has to come from somewhere and lawyers aren't even remotely cheap. I would suggest that to offset the cost and keep prices down for Window-Eyes users, GW should do the following:

• Offer any jaws user the latest version of Window-Eyes for the cost of an upgrade. IN order to receive the discounted price, they must send in all copies of jaws and all license keys to GW


• Offer a free upgrade to Window-Eyes from jaws to people who are using jaws with low incomes.


• Give business a significatn discount and free imployee training if they switch from jaws to Window-Eyes.


• Offer discounts for Packmates or whatever they are called. Trade in the Packmate for Braillesense or other comparable device.


• File counter charges for everything GW can possibly think of that may possibly win. If there's going to be a court thing going on anyway, may as well make the best of it.

If FS starts losing cash by the thousands, maybe they'll not have the resources to attack companies who only want to make the best product they possibly can for their end users. REmember that no war is ever won defensively. Attack, attack, attack, when they surrender and beg for murcey, grant it. Then, gain their trust and when they least expect it, attack again!

a

Is anyone up for an online petition concerning this matter? If so, the wording should be very carefully drafted. Ideas as comments here or by private mail to editor@blindaccessjournal.com. Thanks.

I've been a window-eyes user since version 1.0 and a vocal-eyes user before that. And as far as I'm concernedif freedom punch their ticket wants to act like a bunch of crying kindergartners be my guest cry the blues and be ready to sure enough lose. I guess the only way to upgrade their products to match the superiority of window-eyes is through frivolous lawsuits now. It seems that every 6 weeks their upgrading from version to version and jamming those of us unnecessarily out of moneys that could very well be spent in other places than trying to recover from their forray of fau pas, fowl ups, bleeps, and blunders. And now they've just made another one. Keep on keeping on GWMicro! You guys and window-eyes rock!

This really takes the cake. If you can't stand on your own, litigate! This is so typical of a company like FS with their well known greedy and arragant attitude. How sad that a company has to resort to this when their competition gets an edge on them. I swear I wish I had a million bucks to put behind GW Micro's legal fund so that they could pay some real crack shot lawyers to file suits against FS for every single thing they could think of and just bury them in paper work and legal expenses. I hope there is a way to counter sue and teach them a lesson some how.

This is pathetic & ridiculous! Yet another infantile move which underscores the truly predatory nature of the shark folks! Like other posters have said, Freedom would be much better served by introducing new and/or innovative features to the community - something which has been lacking from Freedom Scientific in the past few “major” JAWS releases - than blowing capital on frivolous law suits that only hurt the AT industry and blind people as a whole. Freedom Scientific should be worried about the release of WE 7, because WE 7 is a good product that has generated a heck of a lot of positive buzz throughout the community in the past few months. Their response should be to emulate Window Eyes and release an even better product, but, the low road seems to be easier to follow.

What is this world coming to?! Seriously, this is absolutely pathetic. As a longtime JAWS user I am very ashamed of FS and hope they get their a** kicked for this one! I would make the transition over to WE in a heartbeat, if only I had the money to do so. But I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing, i.e., using Non-Visual Desktop Access at my paid job and System Access to Go here at home for most stuff I do online. I'm also thinking about installing the next version of NVDA here at home when it gets released hopefully tomorrow. BTW, VE was also quite good as I used it for a short time at a Jesuit college I attended. Hang tough guys and in the end you'll know who's boss!

Hi, GW Micro,

I am appalled but perhaps not surprised. I use Jaws now only when WE goes away on me, which I hope will be fixed inversion 7. I wonder if this is a natural progression from the time FS was formed by someone who didn't understand the blind at all and refused to learn anything to a point now where FS is actually owned by a private equity company in Dubai, which again likely does not understand our technology or how to market to us. Yes, FS may be good at marketing, but what kind of marketing? The last time I received an SMA renewal notice, they didn't even respect me enough as a customer to provide crucial information in Braille as well as print--information like prices! They would not get away with doing that to sighted people. I am thankful they have none of my money for these shameful lawsuits. GW Micro, hope this nets you a load of new customers!

Evelyn

Isn't this disgusting! For whatever reason, I think since Jonathan Mosen came on the scene, this has been happening! This is truly childish and it truly is a waste of resources! My thoughts and prayers are with you GW Micro!

Jim

When GW Micro tries to up computer accessibility innovations that other companies cannot because they lack the creativity and motivation to do so, you sue GW Micro to block its efforts to help customers who are blind better compete with the sighted world? What is there to gain from the litigious actions of jealous companies when it comes to accessibility, not general computing like in the case of Microsoft and Google? Won't assistive tech companies work together to bring innovations, not block them through lawsuits out of jealousy and a desire to amass millions of dollars in lawsuits?

I have long pushed Freedom Scientific to improve the performance and stability of their own product, JAWS for Windows, but my suggestions rarely get acknowledged and they have never incorporated my product feedback into production. It is GW Micro that listens intently not just to their customers, but also to anyone giving feedback on what needs to be done to better their products.

I hope litigious companies in the assistive technology industry like Freedom will not succeed in their ridiculous pursuits. When it comes to accessibility of products for the blind, cooperation should be the way to go.

GW Micro is a wonderful company which offers superior training of their products, marketing, tech support and excellent overall customer service. Can we, as WE users get involved in a class action suit against FS if GW can't go forward with WE 7.0? Good luck, GW!!!!!!!!!

Good point Evelyn. In addition, I remember back when I first received my CD copies of JAWS version 9. Yes there were actually two separate envelopes and not just 1. Apparently I wasn't the only customer who received two envelopes though, as I read in the Braille letter so diligently crafted by the company. Guess what? The CD's were in the reverse envelopes and it was hard for me to tell which one actually was the working copy! I wonder whether companies such as Swanson's, Banquet and Marie Callender have ever sued each other over differing ingredients in their respective pot pies, for example? This may in fact not be exactly the same kind of situation, but I think you get my point. BTW, I have bought pot pies made by all three of the afore-mentioned companies and have never had a problem with any of them.

Well FS, your next version of JAWS will be called JAWS V WE. You prefer to take th low road to innovation than to respond by releasing a better version of your product to keep your customers happy. You must be in business not to create new technologies and improve existing ones, but to get ever richer through childish business practices. 'I Sue, Inc.' should be the new name of your company.

HI. as a jaws user, I am very unhappy about this lawsuit. i thought freedom were done with all this rubbish? I also use system access, made by serotek, who freedom took to court over the name freedom box. i like SA, and would use it more if it could cope with the more difficult aps. i am not a window eyes user, but if fs do something as crazy as this again, forcing prices up, I might go with window eyes or something similar. i do not like the way the AT world is going. it's not big enough to start sueing each other for things in my view.

I honestly can't believe this! Well, actually, I can. Thats the sad part. As other people have stated, maybe Freedom Scientific should actually concentrate on producing a product that doesn't crash all the time, and training support people who won't need to read the manual to answer a support call! Window-eyes 7 is truely innovative, which is something that freedom hasn't been able to say in a very long time! This could be a good thing for GW, because this is going to tick off a lot of people!.

This is totally outrageous. FS, simply get a life!
I respect the quality of GW Micro products but their prices aren't much better than those of FS.
We should all stand behind NVDA and/or Linux alternative if we are after improving lives of blind people around the world.

I've been a GW Micro product user since mid 1992, including the Sounding Board, Vocal Eyes, and Window-Eyes. I also used to be an Arkenstone user, that's another company that this Freedom Scientific bunch of lowlifes has completely disgraced with their incompetent business practices. For example, I wanted to ppurchase a copy of Openbook, back in 2003. All I got was: "we don't have time to help you, we can't ship to Jamaica, we'll give you the name of a dealer in Trinidad or Puerto Rico. Okay, now, on the other side of this lawsuit, I called GW Micro in early september, 2005, to purchase a much needed new copy of Window-Eyes, as i had just bought a new computer. Their response was courteous, helpful, and, within a week, I had an installed and working copy of Window-Eyes on that new machine. There's no competition there, that's bad versus good business practices, and, since the low company on the totem pole can't outdo the best of the best, they gotta sue. Frankly, I wouldn't take a copy of JAWS for anything for free. Also, will not deal with a bunch of lowlifes who can't even provide me with a product, nonetheless, tech support, innovation, or anything that might benefit anybody I know. Go Go GW Micro! Let's all band together and squash that FS bunch and their jaws like a zit.

The goal of a business is to maximize profit while attempting to succeed in their business objectives. G W Micro has obviously maintained it's goals of making computer use accessible as possible during the many years I've been using their product while it appears that Freedom Scientific's needs to maximize profit through the use of a law suit will only enlighten the blind community towards recognizing the inferiority of their product,service and corporate demeanor once this public relation fiasco becomes a public record. I totally agree with those who've said their money would have been much better spent by using it to improve their product and policies. I'd also like to add my support for you, Doug and every G W Micro staff member I've spoken to over the last fifteen or so years. Keeping Window Eyes solid as a rock is certainly the best corporate policy G.W. Micro has and will show the way for us blind folks.

This is really sleezy! I've sat in training sessions sponsored by FS and heard the trainer say that one of the reasons people have to keep buying SMA's is to improve the product. How many millions will be spent in this ridiculous suit that could be invested in developing a better product? Go GW and get everything you can from them!

The lawsuit is the most outrageous action I am aware of ever undertaken by an adaptive technology company and I agree that it looks as though Freedom Scientific is attempting to harass G W Micro. I will further say that, though I generally use JAWS because it does certain things I value better than Window-eyes, I am willing, as a matter of principle and to continue competition, to make, if requested, a one-hundred dollar contribution toward the lawsuit. Maybe blind people should organize a means of collecting money from the community toward helping G W Micro defend itself. In addition, maybe the major blindness organizations should be pressed to take a stand on this issue. If they are interested in defending blind people, this is one important way, keeping competition active and not allowing one company to harass another without serious repercussions.

I am asked at times which screen-reader is better and my answer has been for years that there is no better screen-reader. No screen-reader does everything as well as every other one and you select the one that best meets your needs. If it doesn't matter because they all suit your needs equally well, you decide based on price, preference for a specific interface or some other reason. Now, while I wait to see how the lawsuit progresses and whether FS continues its harrassments in the future. you can be sure I'll tell anyone who asks me about Freedom Scientific's bullying and harrassment. I will still tell people to use the screen-reader that best meets their needs, but now, I'll tell them that if they are neutral on that topic, that they should seriously consider purchasing Window-eyes to support the company and not support a predatory bullying company who evidently is so insecure about its ability to sell its products that it resorts to legal bullying as a tactic to intimidate companies and force them to waste resources that should go into product development.

What a bunch of crap this is. I guess if you develop a screen reader you better run it by God, oh I mean, the big, bad all mighty Freedom Scientific before you dare put it on the market. Well, if FS made a screen reader that comes even close to the stability and ease of use of Window-Eyes they wouldn't have to resort to such childish games. Hey FS, competition is here, don't act like a bunch of cry babies and bring in your arrogant, overpaid lawyers to squash the competition. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Make a good product that people want and they will buy it.

Ignoring one of the basic laws of the new, connected and collaborative economy, FS opts to once again, to alienate an entire industry. Here we have ANOTHER frivolous FS suit, based on nothing but standard TAB Indexes. Puh-leese. If that is the standard approach to business in this industry, the we've all been involuntarily pulled into one giant collective back-step. Will FS reap the benefits of arresting product development in this industry? Maybe temporarily, but this action reeks of a business with a weak footing, wildly flailing at anything nearby that they could potentially damage. Generally, businesses that stay in business do not labor under delusional concepts, initiating petulant, vindictive litigation. Successful businesses concentrate on product excellence. What's next? Patenting "Alt + Tab"? $1.00 fee for each press of "Insert + Down"?
:facepalm:

I visited FS and the people there are very nice. I'm agreeing because everyone needs to cooperate and get along.

I am all for a petition like what we had for the freedom box suit some years back. And I would proudly sign my name, even though I use jaws.
I don't know about the wording, but surely someone will come up with something.
Keep us posted.

It's sad that freedom has to turn to sueing rather then competing properly.

I've read all the comments and there is one important point that should be addressed. I've used JAWS for years and I've learned a good deal about Window-eyes as well. I wish people would separate bashing JAWS from the lawsuit. Years of experience have shown me that JAWS is a good, stable product. It has more quirks and minor bugs than Window-eyes but I wouldn't use it if Window-eyes were overall superior. They are both good products. If anyone cares, JAWS has advantages in some areas. Window-eyes has advantages in some areas. I'm tired of seeing JAWS bashing year after year. No one who bashes JAWS helps their credibility when discussing the lawsuit. I have made my views very clear in an earlier post about what I think about the lawsuit. It's an outrageous abuse of the legal system and a means of harassing G W Micro in my opinion. But anyone who really objectively evaluates JAWS will decide, unless there is some problem with their computer, that it runs well and is stable. I wish people would stop bashing a good product and concentrate on the company who is responsible for this egregious conduct.

Also, those who claim that JAWS has not innovated significantly are wrong as well. I believe Freedom Scientific is threatened because Window-eyes is incorporating lots of significant improvements and they are afraid of the competition, not because FS makes an inferior product. They don't.

Gene

This action from Greedom scientific as absolutely nothing to do with placemarkers and every thing to do with a fantastic Window-eyes 7.0 upgrade. An upgrade, I have wanted to see for some time now. The caring and sharing way that GWMicro are implementing scripting is scaring the hell out of Greedom Scientific, and so it should. GW script central is all ready prooving a powerful force to be recond with and it's not really got off the ground yet. I buy all my adaptive technology out of my own pocket, and I would gladly pay a little bit more for the Window-eyes 7.0 upgrade to help GWMicro with this disgraceful waste of their developer's time. This kind of action can only harm Greedom scientific in the long run, and in fact has harmed them all ready as far as i'm concerned, because I will not buy anymore product upgrades from them for my own personal use, and as the treasurer of a local group in england for visually impaired people I will no longer recommend their product where powerful scripting solutions are required. A. because I no longer have to.
B. because I don't like their attitude. And C. because they are damaging the adaptive technology industry with their petulant behaviour. We as the blind comunity should help and support GWMicro in what ever way we can,, because if we don't next it will be NVDA they will go for just because they can.

You have got to be joking! Is this all the ammo they can throw now? Holey crap are they being childish!
I have been a window-eyes user for a year now, used jaws since version 4.0, and switched to window-eyes after having issues with the program, and tech support. I can't believe they've resorted to this... Be ready... Bullcrap... and that's putting it mildly!
FS... Pull your heads out your rear ends and think think think!

GW, Well done on a great V7. I'll not say anything else as it's already been said. All I wanted to do was add my support to the ever growing croud.

I was disgusted, but not at all shocked, to learn of this lawsuit yesterday. I am glad to see the blind community coming out in support of GW Micro on this. I have been a JAWS user for years, but at this point, wish I was not. Yes, as Jean said, JAWS does have some advantages, but I would quit using FS products on principle at this point. As others have said, when I am in a better financial situation, I will definitely do so. I am not sure if any of the concrete suggestions the visitor Bluescale offered are practical for GW from a business standpoint, but if they are, I think they're good ideas. The blind community stands behind you.

I think that F/S has gotton complaicent. There updates to there product have done little to imporve the overall use of jaws. They hold 80% of the marked and there users have a great amount of money invested in the product and there stuck when it comes to an upgrade. So f/s has them in a bind .
But States are now offering window eyes as a choice of screen readers and f/s knows that users are getting frustraited with the lack of custmor friendly service and true upgrades that make the user feel that they have gotton there moneys worth. G/W you have my support. This is about a big company loosing ground and the little guy gaining and there tactics are to sue instead of making real improvements.

I am a long time jaws user and a senior level computer programmer and I have never used Window Eyes but feel the need to offer a few thoughts on this lawsuit. Freedom Scientific is acting like a child. The good news is that FS is feeling the heat from window eyes now due to the new scripting ability in Window Eyes. I mean the script central website feature is untouchable. It is outstanding. This is what business should be about… healthy competition and not child like lawsuits! I think everyone knows that FS is going to have to do something significant in the next release of jaws to beat the new scripting feature in Window Eyes. However, from a computer programming standpoint, I'm not convinced that FS can beat Window Eyes at this point. Window Eyes has truly passed Jaws in functionality and Window Eyes is much more stable and reliable than Jaws, as everyone knows. Keep up the good work guys and don't lose sleep over the lawsuit because you at GWMicro now have the lead in the market... job well done with version 7.0! If FS has a problem with you all, then they should act like professional business owners and take you on in the arena of software development rather than suing over a single feature. Having a place marker on a web page is not going to hurt FS sales, but rather the complete feature set that Window Eyes has now is what will hurt FS sales. Lets see if FS can compete and top what features you brought to the table in their product rather than taking you to court. I think FS is setting sour with many of us over this law suit and it will do nothing more than cause jaws users to feel sour enough to migrate over to window eyes.

I have no sympathy for bullies, be they in the schoolyard, office or in the business world or anywhere else. Unfortunately, when I needed to decide on a screenreader (thankfully paid for by Workplace Modifications funding), I only went with Jaws because it handled certain things (somewhat) better at the time - eg context-sensitive help, but even those things do not, in my view, justify the extra expense given FS's crap "technical support", much less still this nonsensical action against GW Micro. My SMA count has run out and I'm unemployed now, but even if my finances were better, I would not be purchasing anything from FS. They seem quite happy to send me the meaningless automated reply and/or refer me to the nearest dealer (and the Association for the Blind over here in Western Australia can't resolve the issue and have to go chasing FS any way), yet look how much time and resources they're willing to spend on stupid lawsuits! I will happily sign a petition, as I did when they went after Serotek. All the best, GW Micro.

All I would care to say has pretty much already been said: this lawsuit is utterly ridiculous. I've been a Window-Eyes user for years, and I admit it's not perfect, but it's what I've found easiest to deal with. I can't stomach this sort of action. Keep it up, GW.

That's why it is important to have a patent attorney review patents upon which an inventor may infringe so that the invention can be designed around the patent. That's how one stays out of court.

Kenneth Silberman
Registered Patent Attorney


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Joehl [mailto:sam.joehl@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 14:06
To: bob.bosken@ssa.gov; jajoehl@att.net; mreumann@comcast.net; olsondo24@verizon.net; lbobbitt11@comcast.net; rovadia82@gmail.com; harmonica4me@optonline.net; caitlinh4590@gmail.com; jhamilton@societyfortheblind.org; christellablue@gmail.com; lindsay3.14@gmail.com; techexchange@freelists.org; promotion-technology@nfbnet.org
Subject: [Promotion-technology] Fwd: Freedom Borg Suing GW Micro

Doug recently posted a very interesting blog entry that you should read:

http://www.gwmicro.com/blog/index.php/all/2008/07/24/do_companies_really_compete_on_who_has_t

Aaron
--
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The gw-news list is an announce only list used for GW Micro news and product information.

Hello again,
I would be more than happy to sign a petition. I really like the idea of a class action lawsuit. If we could pull it off, it'd be FS's just desserts. I myself have been a JFW user since version 3.2, when I was in fifth grade and was still getting into the Windows thing. I really like Window-Eyes, but there are certain things that make me hesitate to jump ship. For one... I'm just really used to JFW, and it would probably be pretty hard to re-learn a totally new screen reader. The other thing is, I'm not all that fond of the default synthesizer, DECtalk. I've noticed that if I listen to it through headphones, at the end of sentences, it sometimes produces moderately annoying beeping sounds. And... I just don't like it. I'm much more used to Eloquence, but the problem with that is even if I raise the speaking rate as high as it will go, it's not nearly as high as I listen to it with JFW. Besides that, there are some other features in JFW that I like a lot, like SAPI say all. I personally think the idea to implement that was brilliant. Maybe if some of those things can be improved in 7.0, I might actually consider it.

Greetings, all, I've been a Jaws user since I think 1997 or so. I've tried to use Window-Eyes, really I have, but I think I've got some kind of gene that prevents me from learning to use it or something because I can't quite get the hang of it. But anyway, I do have a copy of it (I think) that I had shipped with my Small Talk Ultra that I bought a couple years ago. In dealing with customer service (trying to decide between the Small Talk and Braille Sense), I can attest to GW Micro's customer service. After speaking with the rep, describing what I needed, he recommended the Small Talk to me, and I've been very pleased with the purchase.

I'm also not into screen-reader bashing. Jaws is a good product, and has been reliable, and perhaps I've just not found the bugs that everyone else seems to find. Having said that Window Eyes is also a good product as well, I can tell that, even if I can't quite wrap my head around it yet. However, as a Jaws user, I'm very unhappy about this latest lawsuit. I don't know much about "place markers" but it seems pretty frivolous and costly to me, and it seems to me like the money spent on the suit could have been better spent on development of Jaws.

Once again, Freedom Scientific has stooped to a new level of low. How absurd. I’m not going to get these words out the way I’d like, but I believe all of you will get my point and agree with me on this one.

I feel it is time for all blind screen reader users to join together in a class action suit against Freedom Scientific for repeatedly attempting to prevent maximum growth in technology for the blind. If Freedom Scientific truly wants to improve the lives of Blind or low-vision people, perhaps they should stop giving enormous amounts of money to the lawyers and put that money into development of an even better product. Obviously, that’s what GW has been doing and it shows. I am behind you GW!

It's sad that this legal action has been deemed necessary, worse that it has come as no surprise to anyone concerned with assistive technology. All I want to say has already been said. However if I may, I should like to address one or two points made above by this is disgusting.

>li>Learning a new screen reader is tough. I like to compare it to learning a new operating system since a screen reader enables us to fully interact with an operating system in the first place.

• Nevertheless, it can be done. I firmly believe that anyone able to invest the necessary time in learning Window-Eyes will reep the benefits. You'd certainly be hard pressed to find a more flexible, configurable or customizable screen reader than Window-Eyes 7.0.


• Window-Eyes 7.0 ships wiht Eloquence 6. You should find it more responsive and better able to cope with fast speech rates than that shipped with earlier versions of Window-Eyes. Download the beta and try it for yourself.

Good luck!

Unlike many of you, I was actually surprised to find out about this suit. I think it is petty to sue GW Micro over place markers, especially since jaws has copied features from WE, and SA, one of which I suggested to them. (The ability to correctly read columns and then the info in that colomn, EG Name, John Blog, Date, 01/01/08, etc.) Which, by the way still doesn't work, in my experience.

Jaws does do some things better, and so does WE, especially with the beta of 7.0. (It reads BitDefender popups which jaws doesn't read, and correctly identifies the check box, and it's current state.) I digress.

The FS' shark logo is fitting. They are picking on smaller fish.

They don't listen to their customers for the most part, (in the case of the most recent feedback I sent, I was directed to a dealer here in the UK, in my area and told that testing hasn't been done with the software. Rather than looking into it, as GW Micro did when I last emailed them about software that wasn't compatible with WE.)

My current jaws SMA runs out with the next major update, which will probably be jaws10, and unless there is something revollutionary in it, I won't be renueing it. Especially since WE 7.0 looks very promissing, (in the extent that I've used the beta so far.)
As people have said, When dealing with FS, I've got the impression that they're arrogant too. They tend not to take on board most of what end users say. The only time they tend to listen to you, is if you say that the other competitors have the feature they lack, (as in the colomn example I gave above.) And even then, you'd be lucky.

I'll keep renueing my WE SMA as long as they keep improving, (in ways that I can notice in my day-to-day use of WE,) and listening to their customers; and I won't renue my Jaws SMA, and only use it for things it's better at, which hasn't changed much since version 8, (namely reading, window virtualisation and working with documents.)

I wish you well GW Micro.
Keep your heads up.
God Bless

I would also like to say how much I am supporting gw-micro in this matter. This law suit is completely unfounded, and is Freedom Scientific's attempt to remove competition. Rather than develop a better product, they would rather use the legal system to remove any competition they see as a threat, and I believe window-eyes 7.0 is a threat to them. While a petition certainly will not hurt things, and I would certainly sign it, I would like to urge everyone to really hit Freedom Scientific where it will hurt, and that is financially. Boycott their products. Encourage anyone you know who uses their products to do the same. There are other products out there besides what Freedom Scientific has, so it's not like we have no choice. that is probably the only way the company will get the hint. I know some people have already said they will do this, and that is good. If everyone did this, they would have no choice but to drop the law suit or go out of business. I also think gw-micro should file a counter suit at least to pay for their legal fees and lost time dealing with this. Again, I encourage everyone to boycott all of Freedom's products, whether it's new products, upgrades, all of it. It's unfortunate, but, only by hurting them financially might they consider dropping this useless suit.

I agree with all that has been said so far. FS has tried in every way possible to stop competition including not including updated drivers for Braille displays in their product. GW has been very good with their dealers as well. I can't say the same for FS. Best of luck.

Interesting, why are they not taking the same action against Apple which offers the same functionality in VoiceOver? I suspect it is because if they tried suing Apple they would be facing some serious legal talent.

Hello there. I wish to share 2 experiences, one with fs, the other with gwmicro.
The computer would randomly halt with a cryptic message, something about drivers and irqs, however, I thought it was a jaws error, so I rang to see if I
could get a 60 day evaluation of jaws 7 or was it 8?, No we dont do that, why do you need a 60 day evaluation, you can try the demo, I tried to explain
that the crashing was random, it may happen after 2 hours of use, it may happen after 2 days of use, but it never seemed to happen within the 40 minute
window, so the demo wouldn't be of any help. To cut a long story short, It seemed to me that I would either have to buy it, then hope that the crashing
problem would go away, if not, tough! or I could try upgrading my soundcard, video card etc, to see if that fixed the problem, and if not, bad luck as
well.
I was caught in a dilemma and felt I had nowhere to turn, tech support wasn't any help. For a few weeks I put up with the problems and then
In Desperation, I wrote to Gwmicro who were much more helpful and flexible, and sent me a 60 day wineyes evaluation. I was so impressed with the support,
and the flexibility that the 60 day trial offered that I bought it on the spot. Now I would be able to find out once and for all if the crash bug was
a jaws issue or a general computer issue.
Sure enough, while wineyes was in the middle of speech, the computer came to a sudden, jarring grinding halt.
I then wondered to myself if it could be an eloquence issue, or even a dodgy soundcard, and decided there was nothing for it but to take a gamble and have
the soundcard replaced, then the video card etc.
Luckily the first option worked, and I was then able to get on with things.
But it shouldn't have come to this, all this fereting round just to find out why jaws was randomly halting during speech, only to find out it was the soundcard.
I felt and still feel like I had been harshly treated, and that I wasn't listened to. I wish I was able to upgrade to the latest jaws version, but I'm not prepared to pay full price for an inferior product and the bad customer service that goes with it.
Yes there are the other screenreaders, and the fre ones like system access and NVDA, but each has it's own problems and quirks, and I can't keep chopping
and changing between different screenreaders every time an application doesn't work properly. These are my reasons why I am steering clear of fs at least until they
get their act together. Unfortunately I'll still need to use jaws every now and again whenever wineyes trips up on something.

I am disappointed by this unproffessional tactic to approach at business. Anyway, I hope the matter would be resolved in an amicable way and not push all of us the blind and visually impaired community into hot debates as to which screen reader has and hasn't features.

Personally, I resent the prices that cost as twice as my PC to get a screen reader. This explains why I think that using Linux for me now works great: in fact, I am finding ORCA appealing for my uses.

However, I like the GW Micro's approach to business: place the customer first before anything else. If FS had the same approach, I don't think it would have spent much of its time in this fruitless lawsuit. In any event, FS would be better served by considering expanding into new markets rather than fighting a fellow friend in promoting the welfare of the blind community.

Finally, I go with the suggestion of filing a collective petition to protest against this retrogressive stance. I think the message would get through: if not via this online blog, then it would through a well-crafted and strongly worded document.

I wrote this post to Jonathan Mosen's Blind Phones list, then I unsubscribed! It probably was deleted as soon as it hit the list but here is what I wrote under the subject of "it was nice"! I'd sign a petition as soon as I would know about it!

Hello all!

It is difficult for me to be civil at a time like this!

In view of the behavior of Freedom Scientific bringing on lawsuits to
Serotek which was settled and now GW Micro, I think it is high time for me
to leave! I no longer wish to be supportive in any way to someone who is a
party to disrupting what was once a somewhat peaceful adaptive technology
group of companies here in the U.S. Most companies I ever knew about did
their utmost to put out a great product and have excellent customer service
to back that product! Most good companies place their energies in being
civil to their customer base and keep bringing customers back again and
again! Good companies didn't seem to mind competition! It seems Mr. Mosen
and company is trying to stifle competition and they seem to like to be the
big bully on the block! It is obvious Customer service is lousy and the FS
product line hasn't kept pace very well! I know of more pacmates on the
shelf where I am living and they are not in use since they don't work! I
was on the phone for four hours and I couldn't resolve a problem I had with
JFW some years ago! I went to other products which solved my problems
easily! Now the bully with poor products and service wants to cram all of
these down our throats with no alternative choices! The sad part is this so
called U.S. company is now owned by some conglomerate out of Kuwait! Yes!
Freedom Scientific has gone the way of a number of U.S. companies! It isn't
ours any more! Worse yet! They are bullying around U.S. companies! How
sad!


I care not how noble the cause of this list is! I care not about the good
Mr. Mosen accomplished in the past! For me all of this is down the tube! I
no longer wish to have anything to do with any project which Jonathan Mosen
is a part of so long as he is behind the deplorable business practices of
Freedom Scientific!

Please feel free to write me off list if you like! I'm out of here! I'm
not sticking around! I hope more of you on this list do what I'm doing and
you don't leave quietly!

As I said, it was nice!

Jim Aldrich

I have used jaws since version 1.4 on windows 3.1 and would love to abandon fs. As others have stated here in various posts, if GW would offer some sort of special discount/pricing for current jaws users to upgrade to window eyes 7.0 I'd make the transition to WE in a heart beat. Guys, this could be a great oppertunity for you to take a nice chunk of the fs market. As others have stated on the posts, many cannot afford the full price of the product and that is discouraging to me since I want to come to WE over this law suit from fs but just cannot afford it. If jaws users got a special discount off of the product, perhaps you could make up some of the difference through ongoing SMA's which is continuous income for you guys. Who knows, maybe you could get even 30% of the fs market if the upgrade deal was comfortable for us?

I agree with everybody else: this lawsuit is absolutely reprehensible.

The AT landscape is changing. It's changing fast, and it's changing for the better, in most cases, for the consumer. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the traditional players in this space had better stay on their toes if they wish to stay relevant. Change is afoot, and we're the beneficiaries. Fortunately, it looks like GWMicro is nimble and fleet of foot. Lots of great new features, new ways for customers to do useful things and share their work, and, dare I say, innovations. Certainly they're doing things to justify the investment people make in their products. Too bad FS isn't so nimble, apparently. I think their days are numbered, and we're seeing the death throes. Too bad, too, because more good alternatives are better than fewer good alternatives. Too bad this action will just hasten their end. Or maybe that's OK if this is how they think business should be conducted.

For those who feel stuck with JFW and would change if they could, let me remind you that you may not be as trapped as you feel. Besides the free alternatives like NVDA, or platform changes like the Mac with Voiceover or GNU/Linux with Orca and Speakup, let me remind you that both GW Micro and Serotek (ironically, both innovative companies who were sued by FS) offer payment plans for their products, which bring their products truly into the realm of possibility for the average blind person. Moreover, the total price of the lease-to-own option on both Serotek's and GWMicro's offerings is only a few dollars more than you'd pay buying the same products and updates and so on outright. (I ran the numbers, and we're talking a difference of $20-$50, certainly no high interest here, and they're not going to make a mint off your paying over time as one might suppose.) So if you really do want to switch, and if you really have a need for a Windows screen reader and want to make a statement, give one of the lease-to-own/pay-over-time option some serious consideration. Money talks, and if FS sees their customers laving, that will speak much louder than anything else could. Doug, Dan, Aaron, and all you fine folks in Ft. Wayne, I'm right there behind you. Don't settle this thing with FS. Make them either drop this ridiculous lawsuit or make them go through with it. FWIW, I will never buy a FS product. Ever. Other companies (like GW Micro, but not GW Micro exclusively) have products that are as good or better and are willing to play nice in the AT sandbox. I say we all should let FS know with our (or rehab's) dollars that not playing nice in the AT sandbox doesn't pay, no matter what your market share is.

Like everyone else on this blog, I'm disgusted with this lawsuit. I've been using JFW since version 3.2, and like using the program for the most part, but the way things are going I won't be upgrading my SMA when it runs out. I'm tired of paying for a product that, when it's released, contains mostly features that I probably would never use, rather than bug fixes that resolve speed and stability issues with a previous version. I'm already looking at other competing products, including Window-Eyes,
and wish everyone at GW Micro the best of luck with this.