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From:
"Scottie" <scottie47@blueyonder.co.uk>Subject:
Re: WebAIM Survey on Screen ReadersDate:
Fri, May 4, 2012 4:38:44 amVaughan, you're missing the point.
Surely a screen reader should read what is on the web page with its default
settings.
If Window Eyes is going to skip lines of text then sooner or later someone
will make a big mistake.
Granted this was just an online survey, but what if it was a question
relating to your online bank account.
You see a Yes/No set of radio buttons but no question relating to what is
being asked.
Selecting the wrong radio button could cost you dearly, especially if the
question was, Would you like to contribute 100 dollars to the bank managers
xmas fund.
Ok, i'm making fun of it, but what if Window Eyes users are really missing
important lines of text on more than just this one website.
Surely if this is the case then it should be looked into.
Advanced users can go into the settings and make changes but all the Window
Eyes users who run in basic mode either don't know how to change options or
are too afraid to try, so it's these people who rely on Window Eyes seeing
and reading what is on the screen.
Scot.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vaughan Dodd" <Vaughan.Dodd001@msd.govt.nz>
To: "'Jared Smith'" <jared@webaim.org>; <gw-info@gwmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:38 PM
Subject: RE: WebAIM Survey on Screen Readers
> Hjared.
>
> I think that there are several ways to skin the proverbial cat, without
> deliberately identifying a survey, designed for statistical purposes, to
> record one of the surveyed products failings - very real though that
> failing might be.
>
> With apologies now for identifying myself as a cynic with respect to what
> you are doing, other blog posts have been very clear about the issue you
> are seeking to resolve
>
> All of this assumes a perfect world when it comes to web design - no such
> world exists. So could you have completed a survey form in a different
> way, so that this bias against Window-eyes does not affect the validity of
> the data you are seeking to collect?
>
>
>
> Vaughan.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jared Smith [mailto:jared@webaim.org]
> Sent: Friday, 4 May 2012 10:23 a.m.
> To: gw-info@gwmicro.com
> Subject: Re: WebAIM Survey on Screen Readers
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson@visi.com>
> wrote:
>> If I understand what you
>> are saying, though, you designed a survey knowing that its design
>> would put users of one of the screen readers about which you were
>> collecting information at a disadvantage.
>
> The problem is that there is really no other standards compliant method
> for providing a description/question for a grouping of checkboxes or radio
> buttons. Fieldsets and legends have been in HTML and web accessibility
> guidelines and best practices documents since the 90s. They are used on
> probably millions of web forms. To not build the survey using standard
> accessibility best practices to somehow account for lack of support in
> Window-Eyes would render the survey less accessible for *ALL* screen
> reader users.
>
> Surely you would not expect us to make something inaccessible in order for
> everyone to have the same experience as Window-Eyes users.
>
>> Unless I have misunderstood what you have written, it appears that in
>> addition to gathering information, this survey was intentionally
>> designed to sort of whip GW Micro into line regarding this particular
>> accessibility issue.
>
> No, the survey was written using accessibility best practices. I pointed
> out this issue on this very list in 2009 in hopes that it would be fixed -
> http://www.gwmicro.com/Support/Email_Lists/Archives/GW-Info/index.php?message_id9517
> Here's an article from 2007 detailing fieldset/legend and how Window-Eyes
> behavior was inadequate then -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2007/11/fieldsets-legends-and-screen-readers/
>
> As I have done on previous surveys, I have added a note at the beginning
> of the survey documenting this issue for Window-Eyes users.
> I am frustrated because Window-Eyes users keep blaming us for
> inaccessibility of the survey when it is Window-Eyes that is causing that
> inaccessibility. I simply hope that my recommendations for making the user
> experience better will be considered.
>
> Jared
> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
> gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
>
> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email and its
> attachments.
> Avoid printing, or print double-sided if you can.
>
> -------------------------------
> This email and any attachments may contain information that is
> confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended
> recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this
> email and attachments is prohibited. If you have received this email in
> error please notify the author immediately and erase all copies of the
> email and attachments. The Ministry of Social Development accepts no
> responsibility for changes made to this message or attachments after
> transmission from the Ministry.
>
> -------------------------------
> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
> gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
>
> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
>
>
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
Surely a screen reader should read what is on the web page with its default
settings.
If Window Eyes is going to skip lines of text then sooner or later someone
will make a big mistake.
Granted this was just an online survey, but what if it was a question
relating to your online bank account.
You see a Yes/No set of radio buttons but no question relating to what is
being asked.
Selecting the wrong radio button could cost you dearly, especially if the
question was, Would you like to contribute 100 dollars to the bank managers
xmas fund.
Ok, i'm making fun of it, but what if Window Eyes users are really missing
important lines of text on more than just this one website.
Surely if this is the case then it should be looked into.
Advanced users can go into the settings and make changes but all the Window
Eyes users who run in basic mode either don't know how to change options or
are too afraid to try, so it's these people who rely on Window Eyes seeing
and reading what is on the screen.
Scot.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vaughan Dodd" <Vaughan.Dodd001@msd.govt.nz>
To: "'Jared Smith'" <jared@webaim.org>; <gw-info@gwmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:38 PM
Subject: RE: WebAIM Survey on Screen Readers
> Hjared.
>
> I think that there are several ways to skin the proverbial cat, without
> deliberately identifying a survey, designed for statistical purposes, to
> record one of the surveyed products failings - very real though that
> failing might be.
>
> With apologies now for identifying myself as a cynic with respect to what
> you are doing, other blog posts have been very clear about the issue you
> are seeking to resolve
>
> All of this assumes a perfect world when it comes to web design - no such
> world exists. So could you have completed a survey form in a different
> way, so that this bias against Window-eyes does not affect the validity of
> the data you are seeking to collect?
>
>
>
> Vaughan.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jared Smith [mailto:jared@webaim.org]
> Sent: Friday, 4 May 2012 10:23 a.m.
> To: gw-info@gwmicro.com
> Subject: Re: WebAIM Survey on Screen Readers
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson@visi.com>
> wrote:
>> If I understand what you
>> are saying, though, you designed a survey knowing that its design
>> would put users of one of the screen readers about which you were
>> collecting information at a disadvantage.
>
> The problem is that there is really no other standards compliant method
> for providing a description/question for a grouping of checkboxes or radio
> buttons. Fieldsets and legends have been in HTML and web accessibility
> guidelines and best practices documents since the 90s. They are used on
> probably millions of web forms. To not build the survey using standard
> accessibility best practices to somehow account for lack of support in
> Window-Eyes would render the survey less accessible for *ALL* screen
> reader users.
>
> Surely you would not expect us to make something inaccessible in order for
> everyone to have the same experience as Window-Eyes users.
>
>> Unless I have misunderstood what you have written, it appears that in
>> addition to gathering information, this survey was intentionally
>> designed to sort of whip GW Micro into line regarding this particular
>> accessibility issue.
>
> No, the survey was written using accessibility best practices. I pointed
> out this issue on this very list in 2009 in hopes that it would be fixed -
> http://www.gwmicro.com/Support/Email_Lists/Archives/GW-Info/index.php?message_id9517
> Here's an article from 2007 detailing fieldset/legend and how Window-Eyes
> behavior was inadequate then -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2007/11/fieldsets-legends-and-screen-readers/
>
> As I have done on previous surveys, I have added a note at the beginning
> of the survey documenting this issue for Window-Eyes users.
> I am frustrated because Window-Eyes users keep blaming us for
> inaccessibility of the survey when it is Window-Eyes that is causing that
> inaccessibility. I simply hope that my recommendations for making the user
> experience better will be considered.
>
> Jared
> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
> gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
>
> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email and its
> attachments.
> Avoid printing, or print double-sided if you can.
>
> -------------------------------
> This email and any attachments may contain information that is
> confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended
> recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this
> email and attachments is prohibited. If you have received this email in
> error please notify the author immediately and erase all copies of the
> email and attachments. The Ministry of Social Development accepts no
> responsibility for changes made to this message or attachments after
> transmission from the Ministry.
>
> -------------------------------
> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
> gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
>
> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
>
>
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to gw-info@gwmicro.com so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
