From:

  Sarah Baughn

Subject:

 Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing)

Date:

 Wed, Jun 15, 2011 2:46:55 pm

Doug, I totally agree with you.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: "douglas rudolph"
To: "John Ramm"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web
Browsing)

hey, okay, i just have to post this question.
am I one of the few people here who have absolutley no problems with

window eyes on the net?... like really people, all the problems you all
are talking about, i have never once came across and i am using window

eyes on 2 laptops, every day, all day... since i started using window
eyes, i have never had any issues, i don't understand where everyone else

has problems?.. is it an addapting to new technologies, new ways to do
things, or different ways about doing the same thing? or is it our normal

nature to not accept things, and try them out. I honestly beleive that GW
is doing their best with window eyes, and see a huge difference between

window eyes and jaws. I haven't ever tried nvda, but with my experiance of
free screan reading software, voice over is the only one that works

properly. and it is only for IOS and mac.... so i state my question again,
where are all of these problems?.. can i have examples of websites that

don't work well with win eyes?
doug

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Douglas Rudolph

Tel: 1306-565-2056
Cell: 1306-209-2823

Email: doug.cam3@gmail.com
----- Original Message -----

From: "John Ramm"
To:

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and

Web Browsing)

I agree with Andy here. There's been a good bit of talk about choice, but
you only have the real choice if you can afford to exercise it. I

appreciate that NVDA is free, thank goodness, but keeping up-to-date
copies of Jaws and Window-Eyes, let alone something like System Access

would be very expensive.

Talk soon

John

At 18:15 13/06/2011, you wrote:

I think that sometimes the concept of choice is overrated. I'd rather
use one product that works all the time, rather than two or three

products that only work some of the time, and to have to remember which
product works best under which circumstances.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Hill [mailto:hillco@earthlink.net]

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 8:21 PM
To: gw-info@gwmicro.com

Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and
Web Browsing)

Yes, but at least voiceover generally works, even on my puny iphone 3gs.

Delete even speaks every character I delete, unlike window-eyes and

office 2007. I can find pages that work on my iphone better than on
window-eyes, and getting the job done is what this is about. Frankly,

the previous release was like the guy who drops his keys in the grass in

the dark and goes looking for them in the street under a street light
because he can't see in the dark. I don't know who gw was trying to

impress, maybe they had a possible big customer who didn't like the way
it looked, but I sure would have rather received improvements on the web

where I'm spending more and more of my computer time.

On 6/12/2011 22:47, Juan Gonzalez wrote:

> I know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think about
> what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice over

> only provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and
other

> windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not
stuck

> with one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser still
> has problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more on

the
> list. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given us

> choices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work instead
of

> putting something that can support it and not work correctly. do you
> want to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for

the
> real fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades but

> that is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it
right.

>
> Juan Gonzalez

> Need training at an affordable price?
> Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com

> to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
> You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the

> web design link.
>

> *From:* Jacob Schmude
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM

> *To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com
> *Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes

> and Web Browsing)
>

> And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what
> about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily intending

> to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide
> examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or else

> private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them as
> examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when I

> hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and no
> workaround where window-eyes is concerned.

> Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a
large

> discussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore. Support
> requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult to

> do that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed
from

> the archives, those who participate will remember and know that it was
> deleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I didn't

I'd
> just ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that. Sometimes,

> things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think this
is

> long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever before,
and

> if we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure the
> products on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not willing

to
> be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages because

our
> screen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm not

> going back.
>

> On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
>> as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and you

>> can find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful
resources

>>
>> Juan Gonzalez

>> Need training at an affordable price?
>> Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com

>> to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.

>> You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on
the

>> web design link.
>>

>> *From:* Jacob Schmude
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM

>> *To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com
>> *Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes

>> and Web Browsing)
>>

>> Doublas,
>> Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys don't

>> work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that
>> particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was an

>> *example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I supposed
to

>> do on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How about
>> specialized pages that I have to work with that have no alternative?

I
>> don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It would

be
>> one thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader

>> users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a
>> workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screen

>> readers, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for
nearly

>> 10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious...
over

>> and over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past few
>> versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the

>> features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more work,
>> thanks.

>>
>>

>>
>> On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote:

>>> hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know
how

>>> to work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might
>>> add.. your google problem use

>>> labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links that
>>> dont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link,

photo,
>>> video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix

>>> .This email may contain personal identifyable information. Copy,
>>> relay, redistributions, and or reading of these emails is strictly

>>> prohibited, unless you are the intended recipiant of this email, and
>>> this intended recipiant only. If this is not the intended recipiant,

>>> then you are requested to delete this message immediately and notify
>>> sender.

>>> Douglas Rudolph
>>> Tel: 1306-565-2056

>>> Cell: 1306-209-2823
>>> Email: doug.cam3@gmail.com

>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>> *From:* Jacob Schmude
>>> *To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com

>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM
>>> *Subject:* A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window

Eyes
>>> and Web Browsing)

>>>
>>> Hi

>>> ** Warning: Begin a sort of rant **
>>> Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes for

>>> years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to be
>>> refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as you

>>> type in order for it to suggest search results, and this
triggers

>>> window-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a fix
>>> for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I don't

>>> know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with window-eyes
>>> on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well.

>>> Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements
>>> such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen readers

>>> call these clickables), image links are not identified as links,
>>> reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and

>>> history list in the address bar do not work properly (they
>>> briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within Firefox

>>> is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do not
>>> update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top, and

>>> I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes for,
>>> and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs.

>>> Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test
IE9

>>> at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly
>>> rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not be,

>>> have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one),
There

>>> are random headings and lists with 0 items inserted everywhere
>>> while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for

>>> that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all
>>> typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every one

>>> of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA has
>>> overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws, that

>>> other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra doesn't
>>> have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the importance

>>> of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes
>>> customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW:

>>> Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but
>>> don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new version,

>>> as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best of
>>> your abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to

brag
>>> about your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it works

>>> as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One.
>>> Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no pr.

>>> What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A
new

>>> set file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting
>>> functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice

>>> feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of scripts
>>> to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there).

>>> Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just
one

>>> area. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW Micro
>>> really care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how

much
>>> I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it,

and
>>> I'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and actually

>>> allows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable QA
in

>>> my book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned cash
>>> behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the

>>> harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past
>>> several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little

>>> harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that up
>>> to you, GW Micro.

>>>
>>> ** end rant **

>>> I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar with
>>> the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone.

>>>
>>> On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote:

>>>> Hello,
>>>> Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed with

>>>> Window Eyes with web browsing:
>>>>

>>>> With Internet Explorer version 8:
>>>> Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically after

>>>> doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come back
>>>> on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's the

>>>> only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on after
>>>> entering a search string.

>>>> More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which
>>>> seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is

>>>> first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of it
>>>> may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced tab

>>>> under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove
>>>> extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue

>>>> persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to
>>>> happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox.

>>>>
>>>> With Mozilla Firefox latest version:

>>>> I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable
>>>> hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with Firefox,

>>>> there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering
>>>> text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google it

>>>> keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press the
>>>> space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search string

>>>> and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is more
>>>> annoying.

>>>>
>>>> With either browser:

>>>> When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages in
>>>> both Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a

ding
>>>> sound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to

>>>> drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered and
>>>> then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to where

>>>> one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by
>>>> cutting the text to notepad and editing it there.

>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any experience with these problems to either

>>>> confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone
>>>> know of work-arounds to these issues?

>>>>
>>>> Thanks,

>>>> Cory
>>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the

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>>>> consider sending your message to gw-info@gwmicro.com so the
>>>> entire list will receive it.

>>>>
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>>>>
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2010 Clore Social Fellow

Tel: 07801 734722
Email: john@rammland.net

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